Lawyers are warned against making assumptions in questions for the record unless the answers are known, and the same is true for radio hosts as righty AM 620 WTMJ talker Charlie Sykes found out Tuesday morning.
Sykes allowed on the air a female caller from Madison (beginning at about the 4:40 mark on this podcast) who, despite her conservative politics, objected to his mocking attitude towards an item I'd posted on Purple Wisconsin (along with a version on my personal blog) about climate change.
I'd written that scientists whom I quoted had said it was possible that melting Arctic sea ice "could be linked" - - the qualifier is in the Purple WI headline - - to the kind of cold temperature blast we are now experiencing.
When Sykes tried to box her in by suggesting she was "darn happy" with the fossil fuel heat keeping her warm in "The People's Republic of Madison," the caller said she was a "green conservative" who'd converted her home to thermal heat (geothermal heat, from beneath the earth) 13 years ago.
D'oh!
Besides being petard-hoisted by his failed supposition, Sykes was also undone by his years of studio and political isolation from what he ideologically misconstrues as "The People's Republic of Madison."
Had he more of an open and inquiring mind about Madison, he would know that its geography lends itself to the tapping of this source of clean, efficient underground energy.
And that thermal heat supplies part of the warmth to a relatively-new, $150 million UW-Madison public-private science complex, and also at another campus location.
Details here.
And when the caller again said Sykes was playing the "mocking game" towards climate science, he chuckled and said "that's what I do, I'm sorry."
So, now we know.
For WTMJ's lead talk radio host, even conservative callers with open minds about climate science are mockable.
So is science-based, sourced writing.
In an email to me, Sykes said he had not misrepresented my "weak-ass argument."
They say it's Journal Broadcast Group, but it's getting narrower and narrower.
I put this also over at Purple Wisconsin:
James, Charlie is an embarrassment. Here is a link to another treatment of the link between global warming and our extreme weather, including the polar vortex:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/01/06-7
An excerpt:
Weather isn't climate and the climate isn't weather, but if someone asks whether the 'polar vortex' now being experience by tens of millions of people across the country is driven by climate change, you don't have to wait for the next wave of scientific research to come out. The answer is 'Yes.'
Sadly and predictably, however—as much of the nation faces the coldest temperatures seen in nearly two decades on Monday and into Tuesday— the push of bone-chilling arctic air into southern Canada and much of the United States has the climate change denialists pushing their familiar falsehoods about how near-record lows nationwide somehow disproves global warming.
Sorry to burst the golden bubble, but geothermal heat uses an an air conditioning compressor, a pump, and a fan motor to capture the not-free energy by using electricity from the power company. It's all electric heat. If her system is 15 years old, the freon used is HCFC, a soon to be phased out refrigerant that's harmful to the environment's ozone layer.
ReplyDeleteBurning natural gas in a forced air system is not only less polluting, but more energy efficient.
The caller was offended and she doesn't understand she's been duped by good marketing and is really less informed about her green choices than she thinks.
1 for Sykes.
Though the "A" in AGW started with the industrial revolution, it likely DIDN'T have any identifiable results you could point to with any level of certainty for decades. By the '70s and beyond, though, there had been enough of those unidentifiable events (statisticall, we know they've occurred, but we can't say which ones they were) that now EVERY weather event has been influenced to some degree by those events in the past. You know, the old flapping butterfly wings thingee.
ReplyDeletemeanwhile, the southern hemisphere, particularly Argentina and Australia, are experiencing unprecedented heat spikes. The color-coded heat map of Australia needed to have more colors added to reflect the heat extremes. 122 degrees has been recorded.
ReplyDeletePeople like Charlie Sykes think climate is only experienced in America.
was the caller named Liz and did she live in a woodhouse?
ReplyDeleteThe thought of Chuckles the Clown saying someone else has a "weak-ass argument" is one of the all-time examples of projection. As you show here, he has nothing if he gets challenged on an issue.
ReplyDeleteWith that in mind, let's see if Chuckles will actually have you on to discuss the issue, James. Or that he takes up One Wisconsin Now on its standing offer to come on WGOP AM620. Somehow, I don't think he'll have the guts.
Not so sure you are correct, Anonymous, since the Union of Concerned Scientists says this:
ReplyDelete"In regions with temperature extremes, such as the northern United States in the winter and the southern United States in the summer, ground-source heat pumps are the most energy-efficient and environmentally clean heating and cooling system available. Far more efficient than electric heating and cooling, these systems can move as much as 3 to 5 times the energy they use in the process. The U.S. Department of Energy found that heat pumps can save a typical home hundreds of dollars in energy costs each year, with the system typically paying for itself in 8 to 12 years. Tax credits and other incentives can reduce the payback period to 5 years or less."
Also, we don't know how her electric company gets its energy. Don't we have to consider that, too?
Another amazing protection; I am an ideologue with a political agenda into which everything must fit.
ReplyDeleteBurning natural gas in a forced air system is not only less polluting, but more energy efficient.
ReplyDeleteThis is just plain wrong.
The electricity to run the system is minimal; it's not even comparable to the energy consumed in gas furnaces. All it is doing is running a pump, which is very efficient. It is more like running a refrigerator, which is very much less energy intensive than any kind of furnace or boiler. The fan motors are very inexpensive to run, but the system can also provide thermal energy to a radiant system, which has no fans.
Replacing the coolant once every decade or so is also very minimally polluting, especially if it is done professionally and disposed of properly.
I did a project a few years back, an apartment building where we analyzed the use of a geothermal system to heat (and cool) the entire building. The upfront cost was about $200,000 above the cost of a baseline gas-fired furnace and electric AC system; the payback in reduced energy costs (without allowing for increases in energy costs) was about 7 years. If increases in energy costa at 3-5% per year were figured, payback was a little over 5 years. Maintenance was cheaper too, which wasn't included in the payback calculations.
ReplyDeleteIn short, Annonny up there is simply spreading FUD, as is typical.
Zombie, this is beyond you.
ReplyDelete"All it is doing is running a pump, which is very efficient."
A heat pump, whether ground source or air source in a a/c system with a reversing valve to change the direction of flow of the refrigerant. It uses a pump, a refrigerant compressor, and a fan for the process to heat, or cool in the summer. That's 3 motors and uses no less electricity than in the a/c mode. It also used an antifreeze mixture of polypropylene and deionized water as an antifreeze mixture in the ground loop.
I know people who abandoned them because they were tired of all the repair bills. Now with R22 being phased out the cost of refrigerant for every leak you spring in these made to fail systems will cost you big. 1# of R22 wholesaled for $2 a pound 5-6 years ago. Thanks to the forced phaseout and slapped on federal tax, it's now over $16 per pound. You get a compressor failure on a residential system it's 3 grand.
You may design them, in theory. I clean up the theoretical brain farts.
"I did a project a few years back, an apartment building where we analyzed the use of a geothermal system to heat (and cool) the entire building."
ReplyDeleteWashington Park Library has ground source heat pump system. They also have a gas boiler to add heat to the loop because it get's to cold for the heat pumps to extract heat because the ground gets to cold. There are no cost benefits to owning such a system because O&M exceeds energy savings.
They also have a gas boiler to add heat to the loop because it get's to cold for the heat pumps to extract heat because the ground gets to cold.
ReplyDeleteThis is wrong, because geothermal heat systems are drilled deep enough to reach constant temperature earth. There is sometimes a lag time in the heat being delivered, but this has nothing to do with the temperature of the ground, but the specifics of the system. The cost of the BTUs delivered is still significantly lower than other systems.
Many times, owners decide to put in a boiler or other heat source to augment the geothermal source to overcome rapid changes of temperature, but for most of the year, this system will stay dormant. My in-laws installed a geothermal system for a large addition they built, and did just that; after several years of operation, they report that the augment system turns on less than once a year.
There are no cost benefits to owning such a system because O&M exceeds energy savings.
For a proper comparison, you would need to also include O&M of the other systems you are comparing them to. Although compressors occasionally fail, they are more reliable and have much longer expected life spans than furnaces or boilers. It's not as if natural gas systems have no O&M costs.
It's still FUD, and the weird thing is how invested some people are in spreading it to delay the adoption of lower-cost and lower-impact systems. You see the same dynamic at play when talking about energy efficient lighting.
". . . . he chuckled and said 'that's what I do, I'm sorry.' "
ReplyDeleteTalk about weak-ass arguments.
paging atticus finch
ReplyDeleteScott Walker remembers creating jobs as assemblyman in Wisconsin . It was easy with ALEC. 32000 UNION public sector jobs. It is not as easy this time with out using your tax dollars. Scott Walker has created ALL Wisconsin`s budget problems working for ALEC. In 1997 Walker and Prosser as state assemblymen championed for ALEC with truth in sentencing telling the legislatures it would not cost a dime it was to give judges not parole boards the control over sentencing. Then Walker filibustered to stop sentencing changes after the fact misleading ALL the legislatures. With out the sentencing changes Wisconsin`s prisons quadrupled over night. Most people sentenced to 2 years now had to serve as much as 6o years. As the Wisconsin Budget watch Blog shows . Stopping just a percentage of these long sentences Wisconsin would save 707 million per year. Wisconsin could have free tuition colleges. It shows Wisconsin has wasted 100 billion if you add the numbers to the state budget since 1997. Not including the building new or remodeling of 71 courthouses & 71 county jails & 441 police stations and dozens of prisons 28 billion plus interest. The total is over 28 BILLION plus the 60 Billion spent by social services to support prisoners families because the bread winner was a political prisoner as US Att gen Eric Holder explained. Then farming out prisoners in several states until the courts realized it was not allowed in the Wisconsin constitution. Wisconsin then hired 32000 union public sector workers to fill the jobs housing the prisoners from deputies , judges, district attorneys all owe Walker for creating there jobs. 32000 UNION PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS. This cost taxpayers over 3.8 billion or a half million per day to house these EXTRA prisoners per day in Milwaukee county alone. Wisconsin claims it has 24,000 prisoners compared to Minnesota`s 5500. Wisconsin`s corrections population is 104,000 with many in half way house and county jails and county prisons that are not counted. . In 1995 Milwakee county had less than 200 prisoners now it has thousands. Is Scott Walker moving Wisconsin forward ? This your reason for budget problems in Wisconsin. Big spender big government Scott Walker. Why does he not work for the people he is taking his check from the people ? Walker is a ALEC man. ALEC has no place in any democracy.
ReplyDeleteWisconsin Budget watch blog has a great article on this subject.
"My in-laws installed a geothermal system for a large addition they built, and did just that; after several years of operation, they report that the augment system turns on less than once a year."
ReplyDeleteSo, you need to install a gas boiler for when the geothermal system runs out of energy.
You need to have a well driller bore deep holes in your backyard for the earth coupled loop which needs to be installed by a contractor.
You need to install an heat pump which has a compressor that runs all winter and all summer so it has a half life of a normal a/c system and gas furnace.
I suppose if you're a wealthy Republican you can spend a lot to get a little - and feel good about it.
ReplyDeleteFrom Fox Valley-
http://www.wisgeo.org/projectspotlight.html
Large high school implements geothermal and saves 40 percent
When the city of Fond Du Lac was planning a new high school to serve over 2,000 students they wanted a system that would be energy efficient, to benefit both the environment and the communities budget. They chose a geothermal heat pump system, which was conveniently integrated into the ponds planned for the school site.
The school is 400,000 square feet, requiring a 700-ton heat pump system.
Two six-acre ponds, about 20 feet deep, were used for the geo loop. 41 miles of pipe were laid in the ponds.
Fresh air is delivered efficiently to each classroom using a dedicated outdoor air system with heat recovery.
Energy savings is estimated to be 30% below a standard VAV system.
Between energy savings and peak demand reduction from the efficient heat pump system, the district avoids $290,000 in annual costs.
This includes significant reductions in maintenance – the geothermal system requires only filter changes (quarterly).
This includes significant reductions in maintenance – the geothermal system requires only filter changes (quarterly).
CJ@9:47
ReplyDelete"Fresh air is delivered efficiently to each classroom using a dedicated outdoor air system with heat recovery."
This is where your energy savings come from. Not the heat pump system.
"Energy savings is estimated to be 30% below a standard VAV system."
The energy savings here refers to the energy recovered by the heat recovery ventilation system vs. bringing in straight outside air from as with a VAV system. BTW - the very best Heat Recovery Ventilation System in the world is manufactured in Madison Wisconsin by RenewAire.
"the district avoids $290,000 in annual costs."
This isn't savings from one system design over another like in saying we replaces our system with a geothermal HP system and saved x dollars in energy.
"This includes significant reductions in maintenance – the geothermal system requires only filter changes (quarterly)."
As compared to what, a gas boiler which has almost no maintenance? A geothermal central heat pump system extracts heat from the ponds and sends it terminal units in every classroom. Every terminal unit or air handler needs filters and minor maintenance. No savings here.
This is a great geothermal industry sales lit piece though - if you buy things by talking to the salesman.
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